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Critique to: The Woman, The Man Child, The Remnant   Updated 09.05.10
(The Woman in Revelations 12)
(Comment by p.j. – Confusion)


By James Akin


"And a great portent appeared in heaven, a Woman clothed with the sun,

with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth,

in anguish for delivery. . . . [S]he brought forth a male child,

one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child w

as caught up to God and to his throne. . . . Then the dragon was angry

with the Woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring,

on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus"

(Rev. 12:1–2, 5, 17).

There is a lot of debate about what the symbol of this Woman represents.

Different aspects of the symbol point to different possible meanings for it.

Unfortunately, most of the debate over what the Woman represents

is misdirected because it does not take into account the way that Revelation

uses symbolism.

The vision contains "fusion imagery," in which one symbol is composed

of elements from several different things. For example, the four living

creatures John sees around God’s throne (4:6–8) are a fusion of elements

from the cherubim seen in Ezekiel (Ezek. 10:1–14) and the seraphim seen

in Isaiah (Isa. 6:1–5).

Similarly, the priest-elders John sees around the throne (4:4) are

numbered twenty-four because they are a fusion of the twelve patriarchs

of Israel and the twelve apostles of Jesus, a symbolism which occurs

at the end of the book (21:12–14), where New Jerusalem is seen to have

twelve foundations with the names of the twelve apostles and twelve gates

with the names of the twelve patriarchs.

The beast from the sea in chapter 13 is a fusion of elements from the

all four of the beasts the prophet Daniel saw emerge from the sea

in chapter 7 of his book.

Polyvalent symbolism, in which symbols have more than one meaning,

also is part of Revelation’s imagery. For example, the seven heads

of the beast are said to be both seven mountains (Rev. 17:9)

and seven kings (17:10).

The Woman in Revelation 12 is part of the fusion imagery/polyvalent

symbolism that is found in the book. She has four referents: Israel,

the Church, Eve, and Mary.

She is Israel because she is associated with the sun, the moon,

and twelve stars. These symbols are drawn from Genesis 37:9–11,

in which the patriarch Joseph has a dream of the sun and moon

(symbolizing his father and mother) and stars (representing his brothers),

which bow down to him. Taken together, the sun, moon,

and twelve stars symbolize the people of Israel.

The Woman is the Church because, as 12:17 tells us,

"the rest of her offspring" are those who bear witness to Jesus,

making them Christians.

The Woman is Eve because she is part of the three-way conflict

also involving her Seed and the Dragon, who is identified

with the ancient serpent (the one from Eden) in 20:2.

This mirrors the conflict in Genesis 3:15 between Eve,

the serpent, and her unborn seed—which in turn is a symbol

of the conflict between Mary, Satan, and Jesus.

Finally, the Woman is Mary because she is the mother of Jesus,

the child who will rule the nations with a rod of iron (19:11–16).

Because the Woman is a four-way symbol, different aspects

of the narrative apply to different referents. Like Mary,

she is pictured as being in heaven and she flies

(mirroring Mary’s Assumption). Like the Church,

she is persecuted by the Devil after the Ascension of Christ.

Like Israel, she experiences great trauma as the Messiah

is brought forth (figuratively) from the nation.

And like Eve, it is her (distant) seed with which the serpent

has his primary conflict.

Conversely, portions of the narrative do not apply to each referent.

Mary did not experience literal pain when bringing forth the Messiah,

but she suffered figuratively (the prophecy that a sword would pierce

her heart at the Crucifixion). Eve did not ascend to heaven.

And the Church did not bring forth the Messiah

(rather, the Messiah brought forth his Church).



Answer

Greetings,

What an interesting critique.

Oh that it was truth.

 

Of course there are symbols in Revelation and in the whole bible.

However, the book of Revelation, or as you might refer to it the Apocalypse,

the very first words states, that it is written to be understood.,

and not the higher science which only a very few intellectuals

could understand.

That is what the word Revelation means.

 

We should also note that it is specifically addressed to the servants of Christ,

therefore it would be quite impossible for anyone else to understand.

It is not a matter of education or even perspiration but ‘inspiration’.

 

Revelation 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him,

to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;

and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

 

We are then told what we are being told and could expect to understand.

 

Revelation 1:19 Write

the things which thou hast seen, and

the things which are, and

the things which shall be hereafter;

 

There is sufficient clarity there for the true people of God to understand

the clear message.

However, there is a requirement.

 

Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty

giveth them understanding.

 

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying,

Come out of her, my people,

that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

 

And a great portent appeared in heaven, a Woman clothed with the sun,
with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;
she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish
for delivery. . . . [S]he brought forth a male child, one who is to
rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to
God and to his throne. . . . Then the dragon was angry with the Woman,
and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep
the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus"
(Rev. 12:1–2, 5,
17).

There is a lot of debate about what the symbol of this Woman represents.

Different aspects of the symbol point to different possible meanings for it.

 

Most scholars accept that a woman in prophecy represents a church,

either true or false.

Much in Revelation is written about a false Church who is a  whore,

and who has many harlot daughters.

 

Revelation 17:4  And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour,

and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden

cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

 

Revelation 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written,

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT,

THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

 

Revelation 17:6  And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints,

and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her,

I wondered with great admiration.
Revelation 17:7   And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel?

I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her,

which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom.

The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

 

Revelation 17:15  And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest,

where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations,

and tongues.

Not really difficult to understand is it?

Who do you think this Mother of harlots is sitting on seven mountains?

How many church organisations do you know that sits on seven mountains?

Who do you think are all these harlot daughters?

These must be very substantial organisations.

 

Revelation 17 is one of the few places which has capital letters

in the translation.

I think that it is written for us to understand.

 

Was it you, or another priest of similar belief, who was very prompt

to name several prominent people including some who were ministers

of other protestant churches, who had converted to the Catholic religion?

I was also told that over 1 billion people were Catholics?

Does any other church group come near that even

within several hundred million?

 

You make several statements which have absolutely no biblical basis.

You state that Mary's child birth had no pain.

 

Mary did not experience literal pain when bringing forth the Messiah

 

It is not in scripture.

Ask any woman who has been through the birth of their first child,

if it was painless and easy.

 

Are you for real?

 

but she (Mary) suffered figuratively

(the prophecy that a sword would pierce her
heart at the Crucifixion)

 

Let me tell you, if you had a son and you were right there when he died

you would not say such a thing.

I was alone with my son when he died at around the same age as Christ,

and this was in a peaceful

environment, my home.

There was no figurative pain.

Mary's pain was devastating.

Helplessly she watched her eldest son brutally murdered,

and take on the sin of the world.

Helplessly she watched Him, and even saw his body become utterly

distasteful because of the sins he bore.

Amazingly He allows us to speak all the nonsense which we do,

without instantly pulverizing us into nothingness.

 

Have you no concept of what Christ went through?

This was no TV drama, this was cruel reality.

 

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us,

who knew no sin; that we might be made

the righteousness of God in him.

 

These effeminate long haired pictures purporting to be Christ,

and the Sacred heart, and the lily white bodies with some sort of carefully

draped clothing to cover the private parts, also purporting to be Christ,

with little dabs of red, in the hands, feet, and side are not related

to the Christ of the bible.

Having had his flesh literally torn apart by the scourging,

his face pulped so that He was disfigured until He was unrecognisable. 

He was stark naked when crucified.

That is the reality, which the Eternal God will let all people see some time

in the future.

 

Isaiah 52:14  As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred

more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:

Isaiah 52:15  So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their

mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see;

and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

 

Because the Woman is a four-way symbol, different aspects of the
narrative apply to different referents. Like Mary, she is pictured as being
in heaven and she flies (mirroring Mary’s Assumption).

 

Mary's assumption?

What is that all about?

Where is the supporting scriptural evidence?

This declaration made by some pope, does not make it so.

 

In our document: The Woman, The Man Child,  The Remnant ,

we make the clear statement that all three groups are parts

of the commandment keeping true church.

 

We also stated that to escape the coming tribulation it was not enough

to be commandment keepers.

My question is where does it leave the churches that blatantly change

the commandments, and brazenly promote idolatry?

 

We will pass on the confusion of the other comments.

 

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion,

but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

 

Much Grace

 

p.j.                                                                                                                                       

 

  

              Be Humble      Repent      Listen To The Eternal God     Obey Him.    

 

                 This is very easy to say, but I assure you that it is physically impossible,

                                         without  the empowerment of the Eternal God.

                    Attending some Church, going up to an altar call, or isolating yourself,

                             in the hope that somehow it will all be alright, will not do it. 

 

               What are you going to do about it before it is too late?

 

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