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Critique to: The Woman, The Man Child, The Remnant Updated 09.05.10
(The Woman in Revelations 12)
(Comment by p.j. – Confusion)
By James Akin
"And a great portent appeared in heaven, a Woman clothed with the sun,
with the moon under her feet, and
on her head a crown of twelve stars;
she was with child and she cried
out in her pangs of birth,
in anguish for delivery. . . .
[S]he brought forth a male child,
one who is to rule all the
nations with a rod of iron, but her child w
as caught up to God and to his
throne. . . . Then the dragon was angry
with the Woman, and went off to
make war on the rest of her offspring,
on those who keep the
commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus"
(Rev. 12:1–2, 5, 17).
There is a lot of debate about what the symbol of this Woman represents.
Different aspects of the symbol
point to different possible meanings for it.
Unfortunately, most of the debate over what the Woman represents
is misdirected because it does
not take into account the way that Revelation
uses symbolism.
The vision contains "fusion imagery," in which one symbol is composed
of elements from several
different things. For example, the four living
creatures John sees around God’s
throne (4:6–8) are a fusion of elements
from the cherubim seen in Ezekiel
(Ezek. 10:1–14) and the seraphim seen
in Isaiah (Isa. 6:1–5).
Similarly, the priest-elders John sees around the throne (4:4) are
numbered twenty-four because they
are a fusion of the twelve patriarchs
of Israel and the twelve apostles
of Jesus, a symbolism which occurs
at the end of the book
(21:12–14), where New Jerusalem is seen to have
twelve foundations with the names
of the twelve apostles and twelve gates
with the names of the twelve
patriarchs.
The beast from the sea in chapter 13 is a fusion of elements from the
all four of the beasts the
prophet Daniel saw emerge from the sea
in chapter 7 of his book.
Polyvalent symbolism, in which symbols have more than one meaning,
also is part of Revelation’s
imagery. For example, the seven heads
of the beast are said to be both
seven mountains (Rev. 17:9)
and seven kings (17:10).
The Woman in Revelation 12 is part of the fusion imagery/polyvalent
symbolism that is found in the
book. She has four referents: Israel,
the Church, Eve, and Mary.
She is Israel because she is associated with the sun, the moon,
and twelve stars. These symbols
are drawn from Genesis 37:9–11,
in which the patriarch Joseph has
a dream of the sun and moon
(symbolizing his father and
mother) and stars (representing his brothers),
which bow down to him. Taken
together, the sun, moon,
and twelve stars symbolize the
people of Israel.
The Woman is the Church because, as 12:17 tells us,
"the rest of her
offspring" are those who bear witness to Jesus,
making them Christians.
The Woman is Eve because she is part of the three-way conflict
also involving her Seed and the
Dragon, who is identified
with the ancient serpent (the one
from Eden) in 20:2.
This mirrors the conflict in
Genesis 3:15 between Eve,
the serpent, and her unborn
seed—which in turn is a symbol
of the conflict between Mary,
Satan, and Jesus.
Finally, the Woman is Mary because she is the mother of Jesus,
the child who will rule the
nations with a rod of iron (19:11–16).
Because the Woman is a four-way symbol, different aspects
of the narrative apply to
different referents. Like Mary,
she is pictured as being in
heaven and she flies
(mirroring Mary’s Assumption).
Like the Church,
she is persecuted by the Devil
after the Ascension of Christ.
Like Israel, she experiences
great trauma as the Messiah
is brought forth (figuratively)
from the nation.
And like Eve, it is her (distant)
seed with which the serpent
has his primary conflict.
Conversely, portions of the narrative do not apply to each referent.
Mary did not experience literal
pain when bringing forth the Messiah,
but she suffered figuratively
(the prophecy that a sword would pierce
her heart at the Crucifixion).
Eve did not ascend to heaven.
And the Church did not bring
forth the Messiah
(rather, the Messiah brought
forth his Church).
Answer
Greetings,
What an interesting critique.
Oh that it was truth.
Of course there are symbols in Revelation and in the
whole bible.
However, the book of Revelation, or as you might
refer to it the Apocalypse,
the very first words states, that it is written to
be understood.,
and not the higher science which only a very few
intellectuals
could understand.
That is what the word Revelation means.
We should also note that it is specifically
addressed to the servants of Christ,
therefore it would be quite impossible for anyone
else to understand.
It is not a matter of education or even perspiration
but ‘inspiration’.
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him,
to shew unto his servants things which must shortly
come to pass;
and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his
servant John:
We are then told what we are being told and could
expect to understand.
Revelation 1:19 Write
the things which thou hast seen, and
the things which are, and
the things which shall be hereafter;
There is sufficient clarity there for the true
people of God to understand
the clear message.
However, there is a requirement.
Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration
of the Almighty
giveth them understanding.
Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying,
Come out of
her, my
people,
that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye
receive not of her plagues.
And a great portent appeared in heaven,
a Woman clothed with the sun,
with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;
she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish
for delivery. . . . [S]he brought forth a male child, one who is to
rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to
God and to his throne. . . . Then the dragon was angry with the Woman,
and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep
the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus" (Rev. 12:1–2, 5,
17).
There is a lot of debate about what the symbol of this Woman represents.
Different aspects of the symbol point to
different possible meanings for it.
Most scholars accept that a woman in prophecy
represents a church,
either true or false.
Much in Revelation is written about a false Church who
is a whore,
and who has many harlot daughters.
Revelation 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour,
and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls,
having a golden
cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness
of her fornication:
Revelation 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written,
MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints,
and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when
I saw her,
I wondered with great admiration.
Revelation 17:7 And the angel said
unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel?
I will
tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her,
which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom.
The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the
woman sitteth.
Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest,
where the whore sitteth, are peoples,
and multitudes, and nations,
and tongues.
Not really difficult to understand is
it?
Who do you think this Mother of harlots
is sitting on seven mountains?
How many church organisations do you know that sits
on seven mountains?
Who do you think are all these harlot daughters?
These must be very substantial organisations.
Revelation 17 is one of the few places which has capital letters
in the translation.
I think that it is written for us to understand.
Was it you, or another priest of similar
belief, who was very prompt
to name several prominent people
including some who were ministers
of other protestant churches, who had
converted to the Catholic religion?
I was also told that over 1 billion
people were Catholics?
Does any other church group come near that even
within several hundred million?
You make several statements which have absolutely no
biblical basis.
You state that Mary's child birth had no pain.
Mary did not experience literal pain
when bringing forth the Messiah
It is not in scripture.
Ask any woman who has been through the birth of
their first child,
if it was painless and easy.
Are you for real?
but she (Mary) suffered
figuratively
(the prophecy that a sword would pierce her
heart at the Crucifixion)
Let me tell you, if you had a son and you were right
there when he died
you would not say such a thing.
I was alone with my son when he died at around the
same age as Christ,
and this was in a peaceful
environment, my home.
There was no figurative pain.
Mary's pain was devastating.
Helplessly she watched her eldest son brutally murdered,
and take on the sin of the world.
Helplessly she watched Him, and even saw his body
become utterly
distasteful because of the sins he bore.
Amazingly He allows us to speak all the nonsense
which we do,
without instantly pulverizing us into nothingness.
Have you no concept of what Christ went
through?
This was no TV drama, this was cruel reality.
2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for
us,
who knew no sin; that we might be made
the righteousness of God in him.
These effeminate long haired pictures purporting to
be Christ,
and the Sacred heart, and the lily white bodies with
some sort of carefully
draped clothing to cover the private parts, also
purporting to be Christ,
with little dabs of red, in the hands, feet, and
side are not related
to the Christ of the bible.
Having had his flesh literally torn apart by the
scourging,
his face pulped so that He was disfigured until He
was unrecognisable.
He was stark naked when crucified.
That is the reality, which the Eternal God will let
all people see some time
in the future.
Isaiah 52:14 As many were astonied at thee;
his visage was so marred
more than any man, and his form more than the sons
of men:
Isaiah 52:15 So shall he sprinkle many
nations; the kings shall shut their
mouths at him: for that which had not been told them
shall they see;
and that which they had not heard shall they
consider.
Because the Woman is a four-way symbol,
different aspects of the
narrative apply to different referents. Like Mary, she is pictured as being
in heaven and she flies (mirroring Mary’s Assumption).
Mary's assumption?
What is that all about?
Where is the supporting scriptural evidence?
This declaration made by some pope, does not make it
so.
In our document: The Woman, The Man Child, The
Remnant ,
we make the clear statement that all three groups
are parts
of the commandment keeping true church.
We also stated that to escape the coming tribulation
it was not enough
to be commandment keepers.
My question is where does it leave the churches that
blatantly change
the commandments, and brazenly promote idolatry?
We will pass on the confusion of the other comments.
1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion,
but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Much
Grace
p.j.
Be Humble Repent Listen To The Eternal God Obey Him.
This is very easy to say, but
I assure you that it is physically impossible,
without the empowerment of the
Eternal God.
Attending some Church,
going up to an altar call, or isolating yourself,
in the hope that
somehow it will all be alright, will not do it.
What are you going to do about
it before it is too late?
See The Video: Obedience Is The Only Way Of Escape
. The only way out of
this dilemma is Jesus Christ.
. He
is the only way of escape.
. We have to be
under His Care and Protection.
. Salvation
by any other name or means,
. Simply does
not exist.
. Complete Obedience is
required
Praise
the Lord.
. Come soon Lord Jesus.
.
Amen.
